A Conversation with Dr. Shanita Williams

Kris Plachy:  Hey, I'm Kris Plachy, host of the Lead Your Team podcast. Running a million dollar business is not easy, and whether you are just getting started with building your team or you've been at this for a while, I'm going to bring you honest, specific and clear practices you can use. Right now today to improve how well you lead your team.

Let's go ahead and get started.

Welcome to the podcast. I'm so excited Dr. Shanita Williams is here with me today. And I'm gonna let Dr. Williams introduce herself in all her things, but she is the Associate Vice President of Talent Engagement and Inclusion for Southern New Hampshire University. She is also an author of the recently published feedback mentality.

Yes. And maybe most importantly, she used to be on my team. Yes. The most important thing a long time ago, in addition to being all the other things that I remember about you, which is like an Olympic track athlete and Ms. Black Sacramento, and what else do we got? Like, you're just a freaking rockstar. I'm so happy that you're here and for listeners, Shaina and I really did work together and we're gonna talk about that, but we haven't actually talked to each other in years and a little bit of old, homey quirkiness will happen through I think, the, the, the course of this podcast. But the primary reason I wanted to bring Dr. Williams onto the podcast is to share her book and to share her genius around giving feedback. Shanita also has a TED talk, a TEDx talk on the very same topic that I think we need to make sure we have that link so we can share it.

Because you really bring your own perspectives, I think very unique and very authentic way to think about delivering feedback. And this is a podcast for women who are trying to learn how and be better at leading teams. And so I know everything that you're gonna share is gonna bring a lot of value, but.

Let's just have you start. Why don't you first just, hi, Shanita, tell us a little bit about yourself. Hi. Hi. Hi. It is so great to be here with you, Chris. Seriously. It is, it is. Coming home. Coming home, but seriously, seriously. But yes, a little bit about me. I am, I am a mother, first and foremost of three Amazing, rambunctious.

Very beautiful people. Yes. Can we just say, wait a minute, the Michelle Obama and Amanda, the dressing up your daughters? I. Can't even stand how perfect that was. That was because when Michelle Obama walked in to the capitol or whatever that Yeah, it was, yeah, the inauguration Uhhuh with her maroon and the belt and the black mask.

I was like, poor Obama walking next to her and he's like, yeah, I'm with her. Oh, she was, So beautiful, so gorgeous as always. Oh, stunning. Just so commanding. So to see the pictures of your daughter dressed up as them as such icons. It was so beautiful. So anyway, okay. Sorry. You have beautiful children.

Yes, I love them. So I love them. But I, I have been working in higher education for 15 years. Yeah, just about 15 years. Since knowing you Chris I know and you know, what I primarily do today is really work with executive leadership to, to understand the voice of the employee. You know, right now, especially right now organizations have to be in tune with what their employees are saying, feeling, thinking what their preference are and what their needs are in order to make decisions.

So I'm working really closely on the front end of those employee insights. Trying to help translate that into some actionable steps the organizations can do to move the meter and really create, create experiences and spaces for employees to be their best. And so I spent a lot of my time doing that work.

And thinking from the inclusive lens, making sure that we're designing with the margins in mind, making sure everyone can have access to those same experiences and creating opportunities around recognition and community, which, Community structures are important, but experiences around community to experience community is a completely different topic, right?

You can belong to a community, but to experience community is different. So leaning into that right now. So that's where I'm spending the majority of my time partnering with leaders and thinking intently about the employee journey and experience. You're brilliant. It's I have to say, I do feel a little bit like your aunt.

Like I'm so proud of you. Cuz I do, I I absolutely remember our interview. I remember the day that you came in. I remember meeting you and I remember being like O M G and I remember calling Bob and saying, Ji. We have to hire her immediately. I can, I can hire her. Can I please hire her? How much money can I pay her?

And and I remember you telling me, cuz I think, was I in the training role then? I feel like I might have been, I don't think I was a manager. And I remember you telling me you wanted to do what I. Did. Mm-hmm. And you and Greta were the two people that I re had that conversation with, cuz Greta did the same thing.

She was like, I want your job someday. And, and then we did work together in that capacity, which was super fun. And so it's just been you, you know, for my listeners, I wanna share with you a couple things. And most of the women who listen to this podcast have their own business, right? And What I think is so critical to remember as women is how important it is that we listen to the people that we're bringing into our organization and how we can do whatever we can, right?

Like I always just felt like in my role with you, it was just to give you as much as I could without overwhelming you. Although I do remember one of those conversations where I gave you a project and it was a little lot. It was a little big. And I remember sitting in my office and I was like, okay, I hadn't given him very much direction.

How are you doing? What was that? What was it that you were working on now? I can't. I remember. I remember it turns. Yes, it was an event. It became the first event that I had ever done. Because I saw it as, I really felt empowered and it was like, Shanita, you, you challenged me. You're like, what do you think it should be?

What would you do? I remember you asking me how would you approach it? What do you think we need? And I was like, she wants me to make these decisions. And that became let Your Light Shine event. I don't know if you remember it. That's it. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. Let your light shine. The Bay Area came together.

Central Valley, Sacramento all came together. Yes. Okay, now I remember. Yes, that is, that was the moment where I think that was really transformative for me. Cause you. You gave me space to find my own voice mm-hmm. In this work. And I have never, from that moment, it gave me the spark to just continue to, to find my own voice.

Mm-hmm. I look, I look back on that and I share that with people. When people say, when did you, you know, how did you find your voice? And I'm like I had a leader who, who threw me in. Yeah. Life jacket, but I love that you had it. I still had a life jacket. I feel like you, you looked at me with this confidence of like, you've got this.

And I knew that if I were to start to sink, I could look. I could reach out very quickly and you would be there. So I had that confidence. I had that confidence. That's encouraging. I'm sure I did have your back. I just you did also not known. I dunno, what the hell should it be? You make it up. You were also managing like a million things.

Yeah, we had a lot going on. It was a busy time, but yeah. And so I think for all of us, it's important to remember like there is a difference between delegating and abdicating and, and when you put someone in a position to take on something bigger, you create opportunity for their growth. But if it's too big and we don't check in, Then it can become so stressful that nobody can, they can't deliver but I do remember that, and I just always knew Shanita that. You were gonna create big, big things in your life. There was no question about that. And so I just saw myself as honored to be a part of the journey for you. So that's fun. So fun to watch you now where you are and your growth. So speaking of, let's talk about your amazing book.

So yes, let's talk about how the book was born. How was the book born? Wow. So that question, every time I think about that, it's like, it, it was, it really was born. Over the course of my life, quite honestly, I think I learned the power of feedback as a student athlete, right? Hmm. I, I recognize within myself that I responded to other people differently than I responded to myself.

For example, the roar of the crowd did something for me internally, right? Like hearing people say, yay, good job. Or, you know, running to the finish line and everyone going, whoa, it did something hmm. To me internally. And I, I couldn't name it back then, but I realized that. I, the information and the feedback and the, the responses people had to me when they interacted, I held onto them and they, they actually changed how I thought, changed how I performed.

Mm-hmm. And so as, as I got older and moved into college and started doing, doing this work, you know, you know, more, more professionally, you know, athletically, I realized that if I went into a meet and I doubted myself that I had poor performance. If I went into a meet and I believed in myself, I had a great performance.

Mm-hmm. If I went into a meet and everybody rallied, RA rallied around me and said, you are amazing. You're gonna do great. My mind connected with my body and would get me there. Mm. I couldn't name it as a, as a student athlete, but taking that thought process into the workplace and realizing that. The information around me did indeed influence how I thought, how I felt, how I acted, and how I really performed in my life overall.

Mm-hmm. And so there was, there was a specific instance in my life though, where I was able to finally name it. I was sitting in my office one day, I had just helped with a reorganization. I had a team of 18, actually, I had a team of 24, 18 of them were reporting directly to me at one point because we were in transition.

I had a whole lot of feedback mm-hmm. About what I was doing right, what I was doing wrong, where I messed up, what I forgot about. It was called out at all times. And then I met with my leader who had ideas and had perspectives. And then I met with my husband who had ideas and perspectives, and then my children.

And then, and then I found myself sitting Chris. At my desk. Literally, you know, that moment where you feel like you almost can't breathe, you're so overwhelmed, you're consumed by your own thoughts and the, you're almost at the brink where the tear is gonna come outta your eye. Mm-hmm. I, I said something is happening and I got up and walk from my desk and went to a coworker and said, walk with me.

You always gotta have a friend. You gotta have a friend that can consist always. Yes. That's, I love it. A walk with me friend. It's perfect walk. You gotta have it. So I got my walk with me friend and and I just let it out. All the things that I was feeling, all the thoughts, all of the, the insecurities, all of the fears, everything just came pouring out of me.

And then hearing myself say that and looking him in the eye, and he said, none of those things are you. None of those things are you, so what is going on? And when I sat down and I thought about it, I realized that I was responding to the feedback that people gave me, and I was allowing it to hold meaning, more meaning than what it really should have meant.

I, I allowed it to change. I didn't use it as information. I used it as a way to really compare my value, my worth. And I said, okay, this can't happen. This can't happen anymore because, Someone's opinion of me should not change the value or the perception of my worth. But in that moment it was because I couldn't handle it.

I didn't know what to do with it. So that's where I really started that journey of the feedback mentality, like digging into the power of my mindset realizing that I have no control over what people say to me, but I do have control over what I do with that information. Yeah. And so it sparks something in me and I realize the more I talk to people, They were struggling with the same thing.

You know, so-and-so said I'm not good enough or qualified to, to start that business or so-and-so said that, you know what, I probably shouldn't go to school. It's beyond my time. So and so, so and so said, and it is so amazing how easy, how much power we give other people, you know, over our lives. Mm-hmm. And so that's where I said, we gotta take our power back.

We gotta, we have to focus on our mindset. We have to develop the mental and emotional strength. To be able to consciously sort through the information that comes to us and make informed conscious decisions about what we do with it. This is so good. I love, you know what, what I love about what you said is we can't control what other people say or think about us.

But we can determine what we are gonna do with that information. And I think you know, as, as leaders, we often think about this type of work with employees, right? Or mm-hmm. But the same thing, like, I love that you shared that I was managing 18 people and I was getting a lot of feedback from the people that I was also supporting as their leader and mm-hmm.

Leaders get feedback all the time as well from their team members. Yeah. And they use it to. I like to think about it as like it adjusts their compass somehow. It changes who they, the direction they go. If they're, if they're not anchored in a vision, if they're not anchored in clarity, they just become very wishy-washy.

So how, without giving the whole book away, like what are your big ru big nuggets then for how someone. Gets conscious enough when it comes to feedback to really develop that feedback mentality. Yeah, 100%. I think the way to bring it to your conscious mind is one, to, to acknowledge first and foremost that feedback has power.

I talk to, to some folks and they say, oh, it's just, it's just feedback. But the majority of it, they say, you know, the average human being has 60 to seven B thoughts per day. Makes you 70,000 thoughts, isn't it? Yes. Thousand thoughts. Yes. Per day. And the majority of them are counterproductive full of the things that I can't do, I shouldn't do.

And because we are surrounded, and when I say feedback, I, I'm really challenging people to think broader than a conversation with my employee, conversation with my, with my spouse. I'm also talking about, Information, the way I call feedback, I call it it's information. Mm-hmm. The media is giving us feedback about who we should be, how we should behave, how we should interact with one another.

Mm-hmm. We're consuming information and feedback all day. You post something on social media, you get feedback. Someone's not liking your post, you are creating a thought about that. Or if some people like it, you are creating a new thought about that. So for me, it's really just awakening to the power of information.

Mm-hmm. Because in your business, I'm sure everyone who's listening, we use information to make decisions about our business and it helps us to better understand the world around us, the people around us, but it also helps us understand ourselves. So for me, I think it's first just an awareness of. Wow.

Where are my feedback sources? Where am I getting information that's influencing my life? And once you start being aware of those sources, woo, you can't stop. You see how those interactions are now showing up? But I also think it's important that we reflect, because we oftentimes are on autopilot, and we just go from one thing to the next.

Mm-hmm. To move this experience to a conscious experience, we have to pause. Now, I'll tell you, I struggle with that. I struggle with pausing. I gotta go, go, go. There's so much to do. We have to pause and reflect on what did I do today? Like mm-hmm. What messages did I take in that I love that I wanna hold onto?

What messages did I come across that I need to let go, that I need to make sure they stop here today? Because studies also say that the thoughts that we had from the previous day, 85% of them are repeated the next day. So if you're gonna allow a negative thought in today, chances are 85%. It could be repeated tomorrow, right?

So we have to be able to consciously reflect, journal, and think about, get out how you're feeling, how you're thinking, and bring that to the forefront. And I think that's the first step in really becoming aware of the narratives that you're holding onto and taking into your next day week business program.

This is so awesome. So I just wanna write, I wanna share what I wrote down that you just said. First of all just that feedback in general is sort of giving us the opportunity to wake into the, in the power of information and that feedback is information. I love that you talked about You know, what are my sources?

Mm-hmm. So what am I, what, where do I get my feedback from? Passively or actively, right? Mm-hmm. So I think it's probably the passive, that feedback that that is the least, we're the least cognizant of. And yet it may be having the biggest influence. And I love that you use social media as an example, because it just made me think of it, but it's true for everything, right?

Like, Even no feedback is feedback 100%. And so that we make that mean something. So that's information. So where do you, where do, where do you do that? And then I love your pause and reflect and the question, what do I take in? What did I take in today? Yeah. And what do I need to let go of? Yes. And then I, you know, the fact that we can carry, and I'm assuming probably the truth is the majority of us carry the ick with us, not the great stuff.

Yeah. Yeah. The, the ick stands out much more readily than the good stuff. And so we are, sometimes, we're carrying with us our, our mistakes, our mishaps, the things we didn't do so great. And depending on how you handle that. And that's why I think the feedback mentality is so important. I talk about processing feedback because I think the majority of us, we get feedback.

It's how you process it, it's what you do with it. And if you are going to say, I made a mistake, and then attach a narrative to it and say, yeah, I shouldn't have been doing that anyway. I'm not even qualified. We're we're, we're, we're spiraling and saying all of these things about ourselves. Either consciously or subconsciously mm-hmm.

Dictates like the things we decide to do or not. Mm-hmm. So it's really important for us to just. Just pause and think about our thinking, right? That metacognition process of mm-hmm. What am I thinking and why am I thinking that? And where did that thought come from? It's kind of crazy when you think about it, but it is literally thinking about your thinking.

Yes. Noticing your brain, thinking thoughts about its thoughts that it's thinking. Yes. To make you feel crazy, but we're the only species that we know of anyway on the planet that can actually do that. That, that is what makes us have so much more super capacity so much more so than I think we even tap into as a, as a species anyway.

Okay. Let me ask you a question. What do you say to people who say no feedback is you other people, it's, it's the other person's responsibility. Mm-hmm. So people who give feedback need to. You know, they're the ones who need to change the way they give feedback. So that, Hmm. So that I can hear it. Yes.

I would say I hear you. And if we have that superpower, I would agree and say, yes, let's have a magic wand and make them change. But the reality is we have no control. Hmm. No control. Say that to yourself. I have no control. The moment I realized that I literally have no control. I was, I was okay with just.

Not worrying about them. Mm-hmm. I think you told me, Chris, I'll never forget this, and I quote you you say to me it's not your business what other people think of you. Mm. It's not your business why they it's, it's, I'm thinking about myself. Mm-hmm. Why does that bother me? Mm. Why it was their tone so upsetting to me.

Mm-hmm. Because I think. I heard Susan Taylor say when there is pain, you have to ask yourself pain. What have you come to teach me? Mm. There is a reason that that person has shown up in my life. There's a reason why that's annoying to me. It's about me not always about them. Mm-hmm. So I have to get really clear about my own personal triggers.

And I feel like life and feedback really just helps you learn more about yourself. Mm-hmm. But I'll tell you, you will be exhausted if you focus all your energy on trying to fix them. Hmm. I'm trying to fix things. No, that you can feel better. If you could just be different, then I could feel better.

That'd be great. Yeah. Yes. Stop making me stop making me upset. Stop making me frustrated. I'm like, no, we get to choose our own thoughts. We get to choose how we respond. They get to be who they wanna be, and I get to be how I wanna be. And so the power of the feedback experience, I would tell you, you will be stressful.

You will be stressed out and. Over oversaturated with information if you don't know how to use what just came to you. And so for me, when people come to me and I've, I've received it where it was delivered in the wrong place, at the wrong time, with the wrong tone, with the wrong purpose, with the wrong intent.

But I have no control over that. I just spend my time going, okay, what did I hear? Right now, I think it's also called a courage though, for me, right? If you find yourself in a situation where someone needs feedback on their delivery, you can give them that, right? It's a choice as well. But I try to focus on myself first and go, what am I hearing?

What, what can I glean from this? And I have a process that I go through to kind of qualify some of those things if I'm struggling. The messenger if I'm really struggling. What are some things to keep in mind to try to help get through? The get to the meat of the learning, if that makes any sense.

Yeah. That's a powerful distinction, right? The difference between the message and the messenger. Mm-hmm. Sometimes we would sh we don't e we can't even hear the message because of the messenger and, and that actually negates the whole value in some, you know, we don't get to pick. Oftentimes the messenger.

And so what are the, what would be the nuggets you would wanna leave? Sort of the flip of that? Because as leaders we do have, I believe we have when you say Yeah. You know, sort of raise your hand and say, follow me. I wanna go this way, come with me. That's kind of my thoughts about leadership and I do believe I have a, I take responsibility.

For the care of of those whom follow and come with me. So what are kind of your nuggets for people who lead? Yeah. About how they deliver feedback, things to remember. Yeah, 100%. So some things that I would say when it comes to delivering feedback, 65% of employees say they want more feedback. So this is a recent study.

They say I want it. And sometimes leaders are like I'm not gonna give it. I don't know if they can handle it. Employees are saying, I want it. And I probably agree that people in the world in general, we all wanna get better now, can we, can we handle right? The feedback that is constructive. You know, studies even show that people say, yes, it's a stressful, it's a stressful event.

I want more of it, but it's stressful. So as a leader, I agree with you, Chris. We have a social and ethical responsibility to be even more thoughtful about the words that come out of our mouth because words have. Power. Mm. And as a leader, you are in a position of privilege. You are a position of hierarchy.

You are in a position to influence, and I know it feels like a lot because it is the, the hearts and minds of folks, you will impact their trajectory if you are careless. With your words, and so the feedback experience is delicate. It needs to have a few components. There has to be trust. You have to have invested in what I call trust equity.

You have to build in and invest in that relationship first and foremost, to earn that trust and that respect. You also have to have what I call ontological humility. You have to know for yourself that there was more than one version of the truth. That what you are going to share is not the absolute fact in the Bible.

It is your perspective, and if you come from that space, that gives us an opportunity as the deliverer, as the leader. To be open to a different perspective that might emerge. We might go in with an assumption and they might change our mind. So we have to go in with that humility in order to, to get to that space.

We also have to make sure that we have psychological safety. We have to make sure that we create space for people, that they have a freedom to speak as well. That just as much as I wanna be heard as a leader, they have a right to be heard as well. So when you have that space where they can. Present an alternative view and not feel threatened in their career or.

That you know, it is perceived as challenging to say something that is contrary to your perspective. You now have trust equity on ontological humility. You now have that psychological safety where you can then have what I call that bidirectional conversation because I. If you're thinking about feedback as a one-way experience, you're, you're gonna miss it because it should be a dialogue.

And if you have those, what I call it, that in the ecosystem, you have to look at your culture, right? All of those things are swimming. It's the air. If you don't have trust and all those things, when it comes time to have the conversation, it's gonna be really rough. No matter how perfect your words sound, it's gonna be rough.

So I think it's important to invest in those critical things first and then, When you get ready for that conversation, I think it's important. My, my number one tip would be is to think about your intent. Mm-hmm. Why are you giving this feedback? Mm. What is in it for them? Mm-hmm. How are they going to get better as a result?

What do you hope the outcome will be? If you ask yourself those questions and you just rattle those off and you're thinking through that, you are gonna put yourself in a better position to find the right words, the right time, the right moment, right? It's gonna help direct you to the right space to get there.

And when you do, I think about a few things when I'm talking about intent first. You know, when you look at this individual, do you see potential ask yourself? Because if you go into a feedback conversation and you already think they're done and they, they can't come back from this, if you've already written them off, that is gonna show up in your language.

Mm-hmm. What you think about, people will show up in your words. You also have to, once you think about. What do I see in this person? Do I see potential? Do I see that this person has the ability to get better or to just be a, are they a good human? You also wanna then think about, what do I want to say?

Mm-hmm. What are the right words? What is my intent? Your intent drives your language, and if your heart is not in the right place, so I say, check my mind. Check my my words, and then check my heart. If my heart isn't about making this person better, truly, Mm. Then that's gonna come out because there's a difference between constructive feedback mm-hmm.

And destructive feedback. And if you are going into it with the wrong intent, that conversation will feel destructive. Mm. It will feel like you are tearing away my character at my worth, at my value if it is about throwing stones and not stepping stones. Mm. So you should be giving me things that I can step on and go build from and grow.

Not things that I'm hiding from, that I'm dodging that I'm, you know, you know, feeling terrified about. So I think while I know being a leader, a leader is a, is a huge responsibility. It really is. I don't want people to stress about goodness, I, I'm afraid to say the wrong thing. No, no, no, no. Just check your motive.

Mm. And you can always apologize. And if you have that bidirectional feedback, you can ask people, so what do you think about that? What's your perspective? Mm-hmm. And they can say, if we have that trust, that kind of hurt. Hmm. And you can say, oh tell me more about that. Mm-hmm. Oh, I didn't mean that.

Here's what I meant. And if you have dialogue and you have all those right conditions, you can both leave their feeling affirmed, feeling heard, and feeling like you are both stepping together to the next level. Oh my gosh, I don't have anything to add to that. So good throwing stones instead of stepping stones.

Come on mama. Mm mm I mean, just so many nuggets. I hope if you are listening to this, you pulled over and started writing notes cuz it, there's so much trust equity onto, onto. Say it. Ontological humility. Thank you. Ontological humility. I wrote it correctly. Psychological safety, bidirectional conversation.

Yes. And amen to all of it. And the, you know, the, the recognition that the words that you say matter, that they ha that words have power. I can't emphasize enough because I have watched many a leader be errant in that, in that responsibility and. Some with intention, knowing that they had the positional authority, knowing that they had the privilege of a leadership role and still were errant and derelict in the responsibility and others.

And I think most others, mm-hmm. Just don't understand. They don't get, they don't get what they're doing. They don't understand the impact of what they're doing. And so of course that has been my life's work is to really help leaders understand themselves so that they can be a better version of themselves for everybody else in the world.

And ultimately that's how we're gonna change the world anyway. Yes. And so if, if feedback is something that you struggle with, it's normal because we're not taught how to do this. All we do mostly when we go to work is behave the way we learned in our family, right? Yes, 100%. So if our parents yelled at us, guess who we, what we do, we start yelling.

If our parents didn't talk to us and never told us anything, guess what we do? We just hide from people. We don't give 'em feedback. And that's feedback. Your employees is feedback. Yes. Okay. We could talk all day. So I know, I Tell us, tell us how we can find your book. Yes. Immediately. Yes. You can get it at book, book baby.com.

You can get it on Amazon. Target Barnes and Noble. Anywhere you can find books. Feedback mentality. Yes, feedback mentality, the key to unlocking and unleashing your potential. Boom, boom Williams. And then tell us how we can watch your Ted talk, your TEDx talk. Yes. So if you go to YouTube and type in Shanita Williams TED Talk, it should pop up.

It's called processing Feedback. And it's focused on the strainer, what I call the strainer mentality. So you'll find that by googling good old YouTube. You gotta find anything we could find in YouTube, I think at this point, which is super fun. Maybe it's gold. It's gold. Yeah. We don't even need links or anything.

Yeah. But we will link to all of this in our show notes. So you can also go to chris blacky.com and you'll find all the show notes and that that'll all be in there. I have a feeling I'm gonna wanna have you back on because there's so much else I wanna talk to you about. I know that you just completed a whole conscious inclusion program, right?

For your, your team. Didn't I just see that? Oh, I, I didn't quite get there yet, but we are definitely focusing on inclusion and how we can. Educate our leaders and develop inclusive leadership. So yes, I think you guys were working on that and we've, we've been doing a lot of that in how to c e o also.

And we call, you know, we focus on this less about d e I and more about inclusion and inclusiveness just in general. It's been something that I've talked about for quite some time because I have experienced exclusive leadership. Mm-hmm. And. I think a lot of us have in different, for different reasons.

Yep. And what does it really mean to be inclusive? Mm. And I like kind of how you talked about, you know, looking at all level, all parts and pieces of people and their experience and how do we, how do we make sure. We're including everyone in the conversation and letting other peop let them select out.

Mm-hmm. As opposed to us deciding ahead of time who we're excluding. Yep. To me, that's the. But anyway, I could have a whole other conversation with you about that. Yeah. Because like I love that. No, you design with the margins. You design with, with Yes. Everyone in mind. And then everyone can can choose, they can choose their own adventure.

Exactly. Yeah. That's, that's a beautiful world. So I'm very grateful to you, my love for coming here and chatting and sharing space with me. I'm just, Tickled and I know it. I hope it doesn't sound patronizing. I'm just so proud of you. I just think you're amazing. I have always thought it, and I'm not surprised by your success, nor will I continue to be when you continue to do amazing things in the world, so you keep growing and shining and let you light shine.

Mama let you light, shine. Thank you so much. This has really been an honor and a treat for me. Just, I just want you to know, For all your listeners. I know she's changing your life. But you truly have changed my life, Chris. Mm-hmm. I remember that interview. I remember you taking a chance on me and believing in me and giving me space.

And so you gave me space to take up space, and now I get to make space for others. So thank you so much. Thank you for your commitment to others. I love you. My pleasure. Love you too. Thank you for being here. Thank you. One more thing before you go. In a world of digital courses and online content, I like to work with my clients live because I know that when you have someone you can work with, ask questions of and meet with, you're so much more likely to get the success that you want.

So head on over to how to ceo live.com. To learn more about our very exciting, very exclusive program just for female entrepreneurs. We'll see you there.